CitiesSpeak With Clarence Anthony
CitiesSpeak with Clarence Anthony, a podcast from the National League of Cities, gives listeners an insider’s view of what local leadership in America means today. Featuring conversations between NLC CEO and Executive Director Clarence Anthony and city leaders, policy experts and other guests, the show gets into the biggest issues, challenges and topics facing America’s cities, towns and villages today. Whether it’s talking about what it’s like to have residents protesting on their front lawn or discussing the creative things local governments are doing with their infrastructure dollars, CitiesSpeak gives listeners insight into what’s on the minds of mayors and council members across the country.
CitiesSpeak With Clarence Anthony
Federal Grant Changes Impacting Local Governments with Mayor Toby Barker
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The U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB) proposed substantial changes to the Uniform Guidance, which governs federal grants and other forms of federal financial assistance. Toby Barker, Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and NLC Board of Directors member, discusses the proposed changes and how they might impact local governments, both small and large, if implemented, and gives an update on the current status of the proposed rule.
For more information, visit us at nlc.org.
Welcome back to Citiespeak. I'm your host, Dante Moreno. I'm the finance administration and intergovernmental relations advocate at the National Inc. Citiespeak gives listeners an insider's view of what local leadership in America means today and features conversations with government leaders and policy experts regarding the biggest issues and challenges facing America's cities, towns, and villages. On May 29th, the U.S. Office of Management and Budget, or OMB, proposed substantial changes to the Uniform Guidance, which governs federal grants and other forms of federal financial assistance. OMB's stated goals are to one, improve transparency and accountability, two, elevate existing guidance into formal regulations, and three, reduce the regulatory burden on federal grant administrators and recipients. The period to comment on these proposed changes ended on July 13th. There were almost 500,000 comments submitted. Now, OMB is legally required to review the comments and plans to implement the proposed changes starting on October 1st of this year. At the same time, we're seeing congressional members weighing in on the proposed changes on their end. We're joined today by the mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi and NLC Board of Directors member, Toby Barker, to discuss these proposed changes and how they might impact municipalities, both small and large, if implemented.
SPEAKER_02Hey Dante, it's good to be with you.
SPEAKER_01Uh Mayor Barker, before we get into the nitty-gritty of the proposed role, can you give us an overview of Hattiesburg, Mississippi?
SPEAKER_02Hattiesburg is located in South Mississippi. We sit in two counties. We're about an hour and a half north of New Orleans. We have a population of 50,000, but in our two-county area, we're almost 150,000. And so Hattiesburg is part of an MSA. It's one of the smaller MSAs in the country, but one of four in the state of Mississippi. And so we we have two universities, the University of Southern Mississippi and William Carey University. And we have 59% of our population. This is a really neat thing about us. 59% of our population is either millennial or Gen Z, which is the highest concentration in that demographic in the South, aside from Columbia, South Carolina. So we're very proud of our young talent, and we're continually trying to go and find money to make the quality of life and their standard of living better for them every day.
SPEAKER_01Sounds like there's a lot going on in Hattiesburg. Does Hattiesburg receive any federal funding?
SPEAKER_02We do. So there's the things that we get every year, you know, the federal transit money. We get uh money through HUD in the form of CDBG as well as home funds. And then we also have been successful in getting some federal grants. We were awarded a CRISCI grant and a build grant in 2020. We were able to get a low-no grant a couple of years later, in addition to just the ARPA money that we received with everyone else. And so uh it's a big part of our budget and a big part of our strategy moving forward.
SPEAKER_01And I'll also know uh the proposed changes to uniform guidance will impact all the discretionary fund that you all apply for and win. It will also impact uh formula grants that you receive, like CDBG and all of the other uh federal financial assistance programs. I know that we have spoken previously about the uniform guidance. Can you share a little about what has jumped out at you about these proposed changes?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's one of these things that you have to kind of read it twice to see, you know, are they really proposing that? And for us, we have to already do so much reporting with the grants that we do have, both at the state and federal level. And I realize this only applies to federal grants, but you know, we're also gonna receive a lot of state grants that we have to do reporting for as well. And so you're gonna have an increased administrative burden to us. I mean, we have one grant administrator, and then we have people in various departments to do some of this reporting as well. And so you're talking about more of that on a process that is already very burdensome. And even if you get all these grants, the information and just the time and effort it takes to report on that, you're just talking about adding to that. And that's less time that we're not actually going and accomplishing the mission that the grant was given to us in the first place. I think the second thing is it really creates some uncertainty about when we receive a federal grant, are we going to be able to hang on to it through completion of the project? Because a lot of these are reimbursable grants. And you think about um if if if if the federal government is allowed to cancel a grant at any time, not because of compliance issues or because we aren't meeting those deliverables, but because you know, whatever administration comes in, they believe it no longer meets the national interest. We're concerned about spending all the money on the front end, whether to apply for the grant or to uh do engineering design, right-of-way acquisition. You get to bid, and then all of a sudden the grant is pulled from you. And and that's that that's that's a real uncertainty when you're talking about brick and mortar projects that we maybe start, but then suddenly it's not there anymore. What happens to that reimbursable grant? And so how then do we have to cover that funding gap? Is that going to make us a little bit more hesitant to go after grants that we should be very aggressive with? And so and I I think it just a I think it creates a lot of uncertainty about what happens if suddenly the national interest changes depending on who's in the White House or who's in Congress. I would also say that from a big picture point of view, we believe that federal grant making, and we saw this with all with the bipartisan infrastructure law, it should be focused on the quality of your project, on a policy or an outcome. It shouldn't be based on the politics of the day. We have enough of that already. And so you're introducing a philosophy that is incredibly subjective and potentially very politically biased instead of just having merit-based applications that communities can go apply for. And I think this is a uh that's kind of an over big picture danger, I think, just nationwide, that doesn't just affect Hattiesburg, but it really does cut to the heart of what every mayor and city councilman and board of aldermen is trying to do.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for that. And you actually mentioned that Hattiesburg also receives state funding. And I know a lot of the state funding that you may receive actually originates from the federal government, goes through the state, and then comes to you. So you're reporting to the state, but it's really federal money. And we're really concerned, or we're seeing concerns pop up that that's going to slow down that process too, because the state is going to have to comply with new federal changes, and that might delay the city receiving those funds. And so it's sort of on those two levels of they feel like two tranches of funding, but they both might be impacted, which I think was uh an interesting point for you to bring up. Um, you also mentioned the mid-decade, mid-award, you mentioned the mid-award grant terminations. I know that cities, unlike perhaps the federal government, you all balance your budgets uh before you know every budget cycle. You have this budget that you agree to at the beginning of your fiscal year. If you have a grant canceled in the middle of your fiscal year, you you were promised X amount of money, you've built 30% of it. What would you do?
SPEAKER_02We would have to either delay another project to try and finish this one, or we would leave it unfinished. It really does complicate just the idea of planning with certainty when you go into a budget season or when you just go through the daily course of events and you're dealing with contractors who, if your money's suddenly gone in an old project, I mean they can they could just say the city is not, you know, is defaulting on the project. And it there's it's a very slippery slope, but I think any mayor can understand how that's a how that's a really dangerous thing to be out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I mean, we've seen questions pop up from cities of do we have to rewrite all of our grant or all our contracts with contractors and our engineers moving forward saying, you know, if we have this grant canceled, that means we're probably going to have to cancel this contract. And that will be a really interesting uh development.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Well, and I think it's important to also know that it's not exactly easy already. I I know just with FTA fund, and again, I think everybody that works probably at these federal agencies are good people. I think that and we and no one is against accountability and ensuring that there are people who are complying with grants, though I would put the mayors of America's cities, towns, and villages at the very top in terms of being able to run their cities efficiently, because like you said, we do have to balance budgets. So you're talking about a process that's already complicated. I mean, whether it's having to follow every HUD requirement to the letter, and even some of that's based on interpretation of your local field office. And so you're talking about a cumbersome process of making it even harder. Uh I think about just the the ARPA funds that we received. Mississippi was one of the, was the only state, to my knowledge, that provided a state matching grant with its ARPA dollars if we spent our money on infrastructure. And so our $12.8 million from federal ARPA became over $20 million because the state provided the matching grant. The level of reporting that we had to do on that, and I understand it, but we're talking we we hadn't it really consumed a lot of staff time and still is as we try to spend that money before the end of the year. And so that, and you're talking about adding even more to it. It's really, it's not practical, and I believe it's unnecessary.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for that. We're talking about federal grant reform right now, and I'll share that. NLC is a big supporter of federal grant reform. You've just mentioned that it is difficult to apply for grants. Um, many cities have federal grant writers on staff. Many cities have folks who their sole job is figuring out the five million requirements it takes to remain in compliance to different federal grants. And at the beginning of this uh call, you mentioned the different federal grants that you have to know about as the mayor of Hattiesburg, because you get different types of federal grants to do infrastructure, to do housing, to provide the services that you need to have a thriving community. What would you say? So OMB, uh, when they released this in May, it was a 412-page book of reforms for the federal grant uh community. What would you say if you got to sit down with OMB or your members of Congress, what would you prioritize in federal grant reform?
SPEAKER_02I think the focus should be on streamlining provisions. And look, out of all 400 plus pages, not everything is bad. I mean, there's some things in there that I think we're all supportive of, but the overall changes would increase the workload. I don't think it saves the federal government any money. I think it just makes us spend more money on consultants to have to report things. Cities are stewards of taxpayer dollars, both locally, state, federal, and funds that are having to be used on consultants to do excessive, burdensome reporting requirements are taking away from the actual mission of those grants, whether it's filling potholes or in our case, building grade separated rail crossings or trying to provide those necessary services and housing that our residents actually need that can better the quality of life of our city.
SPEAKER_01I mentioned at the beginning of this call that there was a comment period. It was July 13th that passed. I know Hattiesburg was one of the almost 500,000 uh recipients who reached out to OMB to share how this rule would impact the city. NLC provided comments as well. But we're still missing a lot of communities who did not submit comments, who may not have reached out to their members of Congress yet, who may not see how this really complicated book of reforms impacts their community as you all think about water infrastructure and roads and bridges and potholes. What would you say to other mayors who are not yet engaged on the issue about why this matters to them?
SPEAKER_02You know, we depend a lot on you and the National League of City staff to go and advocate on behalf of 19,000 cities, towns, and villages across America. But I don't think anything is more effective than a mayor or an alderman or a council person reaching out to their individual member of Congress and saying and telling that story. This this will make our lives harder and not really accomplish anything in terms of transparency. And nothing beats you calling your members chief of staff or if you have their cell phone number and we're lucky enough in Mississippi that we can really know our two senators and our congressmen. And my message to every mayor is get on the phone, take five minutes, shoot a text message, something. Because the more members hear this, the more they convey that to the administration, OMB. I I I I think about proposals back in 2021 where they were going to change the the population requirements to be an MSA. And that would have dra that would have cut out Hattersburg from being considered, you know, one of those 400, almost 400 MSAs. But enough members of enough cities made that an issue. And they talked to the member of Congress, and members of Congress responded, and they voiced their opposition as well. I mean, there's power when we all speak with one voice and we tell our story, and I hope that every mayor that's listening will take that to heart and take action.
SPEAKER_01We're coming into August recess season where folks, your members of Congress, will be back home in your state, in your district. Does Hattiesburg have any plans to meet uh with your members of Congress while they're home for a recess?
SPEAKER_02Well, I know Senator Wicker is speaking in my city the end of August, and so uh we'll be there and we'll talk with them. But again, uh we are lucky enough to have cell phone numbers of our both our senators and our congressmen, and all of them are willing to speak to us and make themselves available. And so I I I venture to guess that most members of Congress have that sort of availability for for their cities. And we should take advantage of that, or we should find out what their schedule is and try to pull them aside. I I I think we have to be smart about it. I don't think you I don't I'm not a big believer in calling your person out publicly on social media, but I do think that um a a direct conversation goes a long way.
SPEAKER_01Mayor Toby Barker, thank you so much for stopping by Cities Speak today and breaking down how these proposed changes would impact communities. To our listeners, uh, we encourage you to reach out, call, email, text, like the mayor said, uh, your members of Congress and their staff and tell them how the proposed changes will impact your communities. If you would like more information, you can visit nlc.org slash advocacy to find resources on the proposed changes, including explainer blogs, a webinar recording, and a template action letter to help you reach out to your members of Congress. If you have any questions or would like more information, please feel free to reach out to us. You can email us at advocacy at nlc.org. Thank you.
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